Comments on: Friends & Lovers http://tracygrant.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/friends-lovers/ Just another WordPress.com weblog Sun, 03 Jan 2010 14:26:18 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Tracy Grant http://tracygrant.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/friends-lovers/#comment-1482 Tracy Grant Sun, 10 Feb 2008 04:21:16 +0000 http://tracygrant.wordpress.com/?p=194#comment-1482 Raoul has definitely tended to put his cause before all else. But by "Secrets of a Lady," he's already beginning to have some regrets. As he tells Charles and Mélanie "I rarely play a hand the same way twice." I originally hadn't thought at all about giving him a love interest. But it suddenly occurred to me that a character I had been going to pair romantically with someone else would be a great match for him. You're right that the man he was wouldn't have been capable of finding love or of seizing it if he did find it (he did love Mélanie as Charles is quick to recognize). But the events of "Secrets of a Lady" and beyond change Raoul as well as the Frasers. I love your comments about Charles! There's definitely a subtle reversal of gender roles in his and Mélanie's relationship I think. As Lady Frances says, "Charles is more nurturing than most men, though one wouldn't think it to look at him." He actually spends a lot of "Secrets of a Lady" nurturing Mélanie (after she's attacked, when she has nightmare) angry as he is at her. Though Mélanie also does her share of looking after him. I like to think the complement each other very well, and I'm delighted you agree :-). Raoul has definitely tended to put his cause before all else. But by “Secrets of a Lady,” he’s already beginning to have some regrets. As he tells Charles and Mélanie “I rarely play a hand the same way twice.” I originally hadn’t thought at all about giving him a love interest. But it suddenly occurred to me that a character I had been going to pair romantically with someone else would be a great match for him. You’re right that the man he was wouldn’t have been capable of finding love or of seizing it if he did find it (he did love Mélanie as Charles is quick to recognize). But the events of “Secrets of a Lady” and beyond change Raoul as well as the Frasers.

I love your comments about Charles! There’s definitely a subtle reversal of gender roles in his and Mélanie’s relationship I think. As Lady Frances says, “Charles is more nurturing than most men, though one wouldn’t think it to look at him.” He actually spends a lot of “Secrets of a Lady” nurturing Mélanie (after she’s attacked, when she has nightmare) angry as he is at her. Though Mélanie also does her share of looking after him. I like to think the complement each other very well, and I’m delighted you agree :-) .

]]> By: Sharon http://tracygrant.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/friends-lovers/#comment-1481 Sharon Sun, 10 Feb 2008 03:45:08 +0000 http://tracygrant.wordpress.com/?p=194#comment-1481 I don’t suppose principal is a good choice of word at all, but I don’t know what else to call him. It seems so much of Mélanie is his creation that his presence in the Frasers’ marriage has to be felt. I don’t dislike him, but I don’t want to like him, either. He gave me the impression of the revolutionist who would sacrifice everything and everyone for his ideals, thus better avoided. That’s another reason of my ambivalence toward his correspondence with Mélanie. I’m surprised to know of your plan for him, because I wouldn’t have thought of him finding love at all. Now I’m intrigued. You must write it, please. :) There are so many things about Charles that I love. One of those is the subtle reversal of gender roles. I couldn’t pin down exactly where I get it, but I have the sense that in their relationship, Charles is more the nurturing one and Mélanie is the one who takes charge. It is very special and refreshing, and yes, it is very, very good that the two of them found each other. I don’t suppose principal is a good choice of word at all, but I don’t know what else to call him. It seems so much of Mélanie is his creation that his presence in the Frasers’ marriage has to be felt. I don’t dislike him, but I don’t want to like him, either. He gave me the impression of the revolutionist who would sacrifice everything and everyone for his ideals, thus better avoided. That’s another reason of my ambivalence toward his correspondence with Mélanie. I’m surprised to know of your plan for him, because I wouldn’t have thought of him finding love at all. Now I’m intrigued. You must write it, please. :)

There are so many things about Charles that I love. One of those is the subtle reversal of gender roles. I couldn’t pin down exactly where I get it, but I have the sense that in their relationship, Charles is more the nurturing one and Mélanie is the one who takes charge. It is very special and refreshing, and yes, it is very, very good that the two of them found each other.

]]> By: Tracy Grant http://tracygrant.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/friends-lovers/#comment-1480 Tracy Grant Sun, 10 Feb 2008 02:23:21 +0000 http://tracygrant.wordpress.com/?p=194#comment-1480 That's a good point, Perla. He did something distinctly questionable things--which to me as a writer makes him a fascinating character to explore :-). That’s a good point, Perla. He did something distinctly questionable things–which to me as a writer makes him a fascinating character to explore :-) .

]]> By: Tracy Grant http://tracygrant.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/friends-lovers/#comment-1479 Tracy Grant Sun, 10 Feb 2008 02:21:26 +0000 http://tracygrant.wordpress.com/?p=194#comment-1479 Thanks so much for elucidating your thoughts, Sharon! You're right, Mélanie and Raoul's connection is a lasting one, which I don't think will ever be completely severed. I wouldn't call Raoul a principal in the Frasers' marriage, but they're definitely more than friendly acquaintances. He was too important to her, not so much romantically (though that was part of it but perhaps the easiest part to get past) but in helping shape her ideals and goals and giving her a sense of purpose at a key time in her life. He was important to Charles too, when Charles was much younger, in ways Charles is only beginning to grapple with at the end of "Secrets of a Lady." Actually, one of the themes in "The Mask of Night" is both Mélanie and Charles coping with their ongoing ties to Raoul. (Raoul doesn't appear in "Beneath a Silent Moon"). There *could* have been a Mélanie & Raoul just as there could have been a Charles & Kitty. Raoul alludes to it in his scene with Mélanie near the end of "Secrets of a Lady" when he talks about considering running off to South America with her when he learned she was pregnant. In the end they all made different choices and Charles and Mélanie found each other, which I think is a very good thing :-). I love Charles, and I'm thrilled to hear you do so as well. He and Mélanie share something special and unique, and I don't think anything they share or might have shared with anyone else can weaken or detract from that. But life is complicated, and loving and being committed to a person doesn't weaken all one's ties to people from one's past. FWIW, I have a great idea for a love story for Raoul in a later book, which I really hope I get to write... Thanks so much for elucidating your thoughts, Sharon! You’re right, Mélanie and Raoul’s connection is a lasting one, which I don’t think will ever be completely severed. I wouldn’t call Raoul a principal in the Frasers’ marriage, but they’re definitely more than friendly acquaintances. He was too important to her, not so much romantically (though that was part of it but perhaps the easiest part to get past) but in helping shape her ideals and goals and giving her a sense of purpose at a key time in her life. He was important to Charles too, when Charles was much younger, in ways Charles is only beginning to grapple with at the end of “Secrets of a Lady.” Actually, one of the themes in “The Mask of Night” is both Mélanie and Charles coping with their ongoing ties to Raoul. (Raoul doesn’t appear in “Beneath a Silent Moon”).

There *could* have been a Mélanie & Raoul just as there could have been a Charles & Kitty. Raoul alludes to it in his scene with Mélanie near the end of “Secrets of a Lady” when he talks about considering running off to South America with her when he learned she was pregnant. In the end they all made different choices and Charles and Mélanie found each other, which I think is a very good thing :-) .

I love Charles, and I’m thrilled to hear you do so as well. He and Mélanie share something special and unique, and I don’t think anything they share or might have shared with anyone else can weaken or detract from that. But life is complicated, and loving and being committed to a person doesn’t weaken all one’s ties to people from one’s past. FWIW, I have a great idea for a love story for Raoul in a later book, which I really hope I get to write…

]]> By: Perla http://tracygrant.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/friends-lovers/#comment-1478 Perla Sun, 10 Feb 2008 02:17:33 +0000 http://tracygrant.wordpress.com/?p=194#comment-1478 I intensely dislike Raoul. And not because of Melanie, but because of what Raoul did. I intensely dislike Raoul. And not because of Melanie, but because of what Raoul did.

]]> By: Sharon http://tracygrant.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/friends-lovers/#comment-1477 Sharon Sun, 10 Feb 2008 01:43:27 +0000 http://tracygrant.wordpress.com/?p=194#comment-1477 It’s not so much as a reminder, as I don’t think I would ever need to be reminded that Mélanie had a connection to another man. It’s more so as proof that their connection was real and solid, not just something that could be glossed over and mentioned in passing. I could remember two other romances in which the friendships of former lovers seem more like that of friendly acquaintants than that of true friends. It doesn’t seem so with Mélanie and Raoul. In addition, the more I read of their correspondence, the more it seems their connection would be a lasting one, perhaps weakened somewhat in time after “Secrets of a Lady,” but it would never be severed. Therefore, in a way, I feel Raoul was as much a principal in every state of the Fraser’s marriage as Mélanie and Charles were, perhaps even extending beyond the earlier years. This strong and lasting connection between Mélanie and Raoul makes me feel that there might have been a “Mélanie & Raoul” instead of a “Mélanie & Charles”. As a reader, I absolutely love Charles in “Secrets of a Lady,” (I haven’t read “Beneath a Silent Moon”) so feeling the possibility that Raoul might emerge from my reading of the Fraser Correspondence as the tragic romantic hero who gave up love for duty/ideals is also unsettling to me. :) It’s not so much as a reminder, as I don’t think I would ever need to be reminded that Mélanie had a connection to another man. It’s more so as proof that their connection was real and solid, not just something that could be glossed over and mentioned in passing. I could remember two other romances in which the friendships of former lovers seem more like that of friendly acquaintants than that of true friends. It doesn’t seem so with Mélanie and Raoul.

In addition, the more I read of their correspondence, the more it seems their connection would be a lasting one, perhaps weakened somewhat in time after “Secrets of a Lady,” but it would never be severed. Therefore, in a way, I feel Raoul was as much a principal in every state of the Fraser’s marriage as Mélanie and Charles were, perhaps even extending beyond the earlier years.

This strong and lasting connection between Mélanie and Raoul makes me feel that there might have been a “Mélanie & Raoul” instead of a “Mélanie & Charles”. As a reader, I absolutely love Charles in “Secrets of a Lady,” (I haven’t read “Beneath a Silent Moon”) so feeling the possibility that Raoul might emerge from my reading of the Fraser Correspondence as the tragic romantic hero who gave up love for duty/ideals is also unsettling to me. :)

]]> By: Tracy Grant http://tracygrant.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/friends-lovers/#comment-1475 Tracy Grant Sat, 09 Feb 2008 07:03:11 +0000 http://tracygrant.wordpress.com/?p=194#comment-1475 Thanks so much for posting, Sharon! I completely agree that relationships between former lovers can make for fascinating reading, and it's particularly interesting when the former lovers manage to remain friends and obviously still care about each other. I confess that exploring the relationship between Mélanie and Raoul in the early years is one of the things I find particularly interesting in the writing Fraser Correspondence, though it's also challenging to get the tone right. It's interesting that you feel ambivalent about reading it. Is that because it serves as a reminder that Mélanie had a connection to another man during the early years of her marriage? (Definitely an unsettling topic, though part of the reality of Charles & Mélanie's story). I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on the subject! love Thanks so much for posting, Sharon! I completely agree that relationships between former lovers can make for fascinating reading, and it’s particularly interesting when the former lovers manage to remain friends and obviously still care about each other. I confess that exploring the relationship between Mélanie and Raoul in the early years is one of the things I find particularly interesting in the writing Fraser Correspondence, though it’s also challenging to get the tone right. It’s interesting that you feel ambivalent about reading it. Is that because it serves as a reminder that Mélanie had a connection to another man during the early years of her marriage? (Definitely an unsettling topic, though part of the reality of Charles & Mélanie’s story). I’d love to hear more of your thoughts on the subject!
love

]]> By: Sharon http://tracygrant.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/friends-lovers/#comment-1474 Sharon Fri, 08 Feb 2008 22:16:04 +0000 http://tracygrant.wordpress.com/?p=194#comment-1474 Dear Tracy, While I love stories in which lovers are the best of friends, I feel it more fascinating and challenging reading about former lovers who remain friends, as in the case of Mélanie & Raoul. Ever since I started visiting your blog, I’ve always felt ambivalent reading the correspondence between Mélanie & Raoul: on the one hand I want to know more about their connection, and the way it changed every step of the way in Mélanie’s marriage to Charles, yet at the same time I also feel I don’t want to know much more about them. It’s somewhat unsettling. Sharon Dear Tracy,

While I love stories in which lovers are the best of friends, I feel it more fascinating and challenging reading about former lovers who remain friends, as in the case of Mélanie & Raoul. Ever since I started visiting your blog, I’ve always felt ambivalent reading the correspondence between Mélanie & Raoul: on the one hand I want to know more about their connection, and the way it changed every step of the way in Mélanie’s marriage to Charles, yet at the same time I also feel I don’t want to know much more about them. It’s somewhat unsettling.

Sharon

]]> By: Tracy Grant http://tracygrant.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/friends-lovers/#comment-1473 Tracy Grant Wed, 06 Feb 2008 23:21:53 +0000 http://tracygrant.wordpress.com/?p=194#comment-1473 Totally agree about the Petherbridge/Walter series, Dorthe. I loved those moments in "Strong Poison" and "Have His Carcase" too. Also the moment at the end of "Have His Carcase" where she stumbles and he catches her arm and they look at each other as though he desperately wants to kiss her. "Gaudy Night" was way too truncated as you say--I loved the actors but was so sad not see so many of the great scenes from the book (including the end, which wasn't precisely like the book and didn't have the Latin). I wish they'd done "Busman's Honeymoon" too. Still, the series captured a lot of the wonderful texture of their relationship. Totally agree about the Petherbridge/Walter series, Dorthe. I loved those moments in “Strong Poison” and “Have His Carcase” too. Also the moment at the end of “Have His Carcase” where she stumbles and he catches her arm and they look at each other as though he desperately wants to kiss her. “Gaudy Night” was way too truncated as you say–I loved the actors but was so sad not see so many of the great scenes from the book (including the end, which wasn’t precisely like the book and didn’t have the Latin). I wish they’d done “Busman’s Honeymoon” too. Still, the series captured a lot of the wonderful texture of their relationship.

]]> By: Dorthe http://tracygrant.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/friends-lovers/#comment-1472 Dorthe Wed, 06 Feb 2008 18:49:12 +0000 http://tracygrant.wordpress.com/?p=194#comment-1472 To return to Peter Wimsey and Harriet Vane. I really enjoyed the series with Edward Petherbridge and Harriet Walter. Especially Strong Poison and Have his Carcase (not so much Gaudy Night - too much plot and too little interaction between Harriet and Peter - no chessmen, no dogcollar!). I think that the friendship/love relationship between the two was so subtly developed. In Strong Poison where you see the sparring and intellectual bond between the two (when they develop her next crime story) and the little scene where he tries to hold her hand. In Have his Carcase where they work excellently together as detectives and then, when they have tea, and they just look at each other, realizing that something different is also going on. In this way those dramatizations of the two books showed the counterpoint theme that Tracy mentioned in connection with Gaudy Night - friends and lovers, being separate (with all the pain that they both felt) and yearning for union. To return to Peter Wimsey and Harriet Vane. I really enjoyed the series with Edward Petherbridge and Harriet Walter. Especially Strong Poison and Have his Carcase (not so much Gaudy Night – too much plot and too little interaction between Harriet and Peter – no chessmen, no dogcollar!). I think that the friendship/love relationship between the two was so subtly developed. In Strong Poison where you see the sparring and intellectual bond between the two (when they develop her next crime story) and the little scene where he tries to hold her hand. In Have his Carcase where they work excellently together as detectives and then, when they have tea, and they just look at each other, realizing that something different is also going on.
In this way those dramatizations of the two books showed the counterpoint theme that Tracy mentioned in connection with Gaudy Night – friends and lovers, being separate (with all the pain that they both felt) and yearning for union.

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