March 23, 2008
Anti-heroines
Posted by Tracy Grant under Baroness Orczy, Becky Sharp, Beneath a Silent Moon, Emily Cowper, Emma, Georgette Heyer, Harriet Granville, Jane Austen, Lady Caroline Lamb, Marguerite St. Just, Milady de Winter, Mélanie and Charles Fraser, Scarlet Pimpernel, Secrets of a Lady, The Three Musketeers, Tracy Grant, UncategorizedI blogged a while back about my fondness for imperfect characters. As I wrote, “I’ve always found flawed characters much more interesting than the more conventionally heroic sort. Growing up, Milady de Winter was my favorite character in The Three Musketeers (I thought Constance was boring), I couldn’t understand why Lucie Manette looked twice at Charles Darnay when Sydney Carton was around, I much preferred Mary Crawford to Fanny Price.” Sarah wrote to me recently following up on this, because she’s reading The Three Musketeers and getting to know the fascinating Milady de Winter. Sarah wrote, “I know I tend to prefer heroines who use their ‘feminine wiles’ - or sexuality - to achieve their own way, instead of resorting to the cliched ‘PC’ approach of typically male methods, such as physical violence, and Milady is the perfect example of a strong woman.”
As with so many classics, my first introduction to The Three Musketeers was my mom reading it out loud to me when I was quite small. I remember her describing the book before we read it and saying “It has a fascinating heroine–I mean villainess.” That’s a perfect way to describe Milady, because while she’s definitely an antagonist to d’Artagnan, Athos, Porthos, and Aramis, she’s a compelling, fascinating character. As Sarah said, Milady “was actually wronged as well as in the wrong, and yet was punished for her ambition and desire.” Sarah compared Milady to another character we’ve discussed on this blog. “Milady reminds me a lot of Chauvelin, actually - the sympathetic villain, the ‘anti-hero’.”
Anti-heroine seems an appropriate description of Milady and, I think, sums up the contradictions of her character. Milady is an agent of Cardinal Richlieu which pits her against the musketeer heroes in the complex intrigues of the novel. She also, it is later revealed, has a connection to Athos. Athos (the most tormented of the musketeers) was once married. He was madly in love with his wife until he realized she bore a brand which meant she had been in prison. Enraged that she had deceived about her identity and past, he killed her. Or thought he did. It turns out she escaped, and she and Milady de Winter are one in the same. From the time I first read the book, I was far more sympathetic to Milady than to Athos (a view my mother reinforced). Sarah had the same response. As she wrote, “I think Milady won my sympathy in comparison with the men in the story, particularly when her ‘crime’ is held up against her husband’s. Imagine if Percy had flown so violently and absolutely off the handle when he learned that Marguerite had kept her past from him!”
I hadn’t thought of this comparison until Sarah brought it up, but it’s very apt. Athos trying to kill Milady is much as if Percy tried to kill Marguerite. Or if Charles tried to kill Mélanie when he learns about her past in Secrets of a Lady. As much as I’ve thought of alternative ways the revelation of Mélanie’s past might have played out, that’s one scenario that never occurred to me. And yet, Charles would have had a “better” justification than Athos, because Mélanie was using him when she married him. Milady lied about her past to Athos, but as far as I recall she wasn’t spying on him or otherwise betraying him at that time.
What makes an anti-heroine? Are they the opposite of a heroine? Or of what we expect of a heroine? As with an anti-hero, I think the term encompasses a wide range of characters. I don’t think I’d call Marguerite an anti=heroine. She has some interesting flaws, but for the most part she is a caught in a fiendish dilemma and trying to do the right thing (at considerable personal cost). Mélanie may be an anti-heroine. Her actions are certainly food for debate, and as we’ve discussed, she elicits a wide range of responses from readers. I always knew that Milady de Winter influenced Mélanie a bit, but until I wrote this post, I didn’t realize quite how much :-).
Sarah wrote that “another literary ‘black hat’ is of course Becky Sharp in Vanity Fair - I couldn’t quite finish that novel, but I did admire her determination and guile!” I would definitely call Becky an anti-heroine. Unlike Milady she is the protagonist of the story rather than the antagonist, but she schemes her way throughout the novel, managing to make her friend Amelia, a more “typical” heroine, look distinctly dull in comparison. Troubled, spoiled Barbara Childe in Georgette Heyer’s An Infamous Army perhaps might also be called an anti-heroine. Certainly her perspective sister-in-law Judith sees her as an undesirable wife for the hero. Judith would prefer him to marry sweet Lucy Devenish, like Amelia more typical heroine material. But Lucy proves to be not precisely what she seems on the surface. And Barbara grows and changes in the course of the novel and ends up with a quite believable happy ending. Scarlet O’Hara also grows and changes in the course of Gone with the Wind, though the end of the novel is more up in the air. And then there’s Emma in Jane Austen’s novel of the same name. I don’t think I’ve ever heard Emma described as an anti-heroine, but just a few days ago a friend was saying that much as she loved Austen’s novels, she just couldn’t sympathize with Emma. Emma is arguably more flawed than the heroines of Austen’s other novels. Given my fondness for flawed and imperfect characters perhaps it’s not surprising that she’s tied with Elizabeth Bennet as my favorite Austen heroine :-).
What makes anti-heroines so intriguing? Well, for one thing (as I noticed as a child) they usually get to wear the best clothes
(only compare Emma with Fanny Price or Becky Sharp with Amelia or Milady with Constance). But more seriously, I think it’s in large part that they often are characters who break rules and defy conventions. That’s part of the appeal of anti-heroes as well, but I think there’s something particularly interesting about women who defy conventions in an historical setting in which there are so many restrictions on a woman’s role. Becky Sharp has nothing but her wits to rely on (unlike Amelia, who is protected by fortune and family, at least in the beginning). I’ve always seen Barbara and Emma both as bright women who have trouble finding an outlet for their intelligence.
As a child of seven, I liked Milady because she got to *do* things, instead of waiting to be rescued. She plays the game with (and against) men and sometimes wins. As Sarah says, “I don’t know if her brand is meant to signify that she is guilty of a serious crime, such as murder, or merely a crime against the church/state, but Athos makes it clear that he punished her for betraying him. It’s almost as if he turned on her because he felt that he was in her power, that she was in control of him - and there are various references to her hypnotic, supernatural allure, comparing her to a snake and a devil, that suggest she cannot be merely a natural woman and a fearful enemy at the same time. For all that, Dumas doesn’t exaggerate her character - Milady serves her own interests, and uses her wits and attraction to manipulate others, because she has good reason not to trust anybody else!”
I would have ended Milady’s story quite differently had I written it. Sarah referred to my earlier comment on this, asking, “Is it necessary to believe that an anti-heroine can be ‘redeemed’? In a previous topic, you mentioned that you would have written Milady with a ‘heart’, but what would that mean for her? Should she have spared Constance? …I think this is what intrigues me - the concept that ’strong’ women must be caring and forgiving at heart, or face their own destruction, as ‘independent’ heroines are really only awkward, plain creatures searching for a husband!’”
I certainly don’t think anti-heroines need to be redeemed or even redeemable. I would have written a Milady with a bit more compassion (I wouldn’t have had her kill Constance) because that’s the way my mind works and the sort of story I write. I would have wanted to give her a happy ending with Athos–which would have necessitated changing Athos’s character a great deal (more than Milady’s, I think). That’s me, and the stories I tend to tell. My heroes and heroines (and even a number of my villains) tend to have a fair amount of compassion and empathy (as I mentioned in a previous post, whne my mom’s and I attempted to write a hero who began the book as amoral–in A Touch of Scandal–he didn’t turn out nearly as amoral we intended). But I too dislike the idea that heroines or anti-heroines need to give way to softer impulses. Mélanie has her share of compassion (though not as much, I think, as Charles), but she puts her loyalty to her cause before her loyalty to her husband, and if she had to do it again, I don’t think she’d make a different choice.
Do you like anti-heroines or do they simply lose your sympathy? Any thoughts on the characters discussed above or any other anti-heroines to suggest? If you’ve read The Three Musketeers (or seen any of the film versions) what did you think of Milady? Do you think Mélanie is an anti-heroine? What about Emma?
This week’s Fraser Correspondence addition is a (fictional as are all the Fraser Correspondence) letter from Emily Cowper (a real historical figure, the sister of William Lamb and sister-in-law of Lady Caroline Lamb) to her friend Harriet Granville (also a real historical figure, the daughter of the Duchess of Devonshire and Caroline’s Lamb’s cousin) just after Charles and Mélanie have settled in London in the spring of 1817.
Update 26 March: I’m blogging today on History Hoydens about An Age of Unrest: Britain in 1817. Do stop by and comment if you have time!
March 23, 2008 at 6:56 pm
You’re right about the clothes, Tracy! Marguerite Blakeney is written as being at the height of fashion, and she certainly enjoys her jewels!
Yes, I think Milady had to die because of men’s fear (terror) of women who hold power over them.
Eve is blamed for “tempting” Adam into sin. Women have been blamed for “tempting men into sin” for centuries. Still are.
Who dies in the moral tales? Sexual women. Hell, female characters often died so that Hero could live his life chaste, doing Noble Works, unfettered by responsibility to Wife and Children.
Sorry. I’m a little bitter.
OT, I think it’s telling that in the Disney “Three Musketeers”, Athos begs Milady’s forgiveness and tries to save her.
March 23, 2008 at 7:06 pm
That’s precisely why I would have written a different ending for Milady, JMM :-). (Of course she could have survived and triumphed and not had a romantic happy ending–my mind just tends to work toward romantic happy endings).
I liked that Athos tried to save Milady in the Disney “Three Musketeers” (though on the whole it’s not my favorite film adaptation–I love the Richard Lester movies). But then, since the musketeers didn’t kill her, they had to have her kill herself. She couldn’t escape and have a future, happy or otherwise.
It really annoyed me in the book that Milady died whereas her male counterpart (another of Richlieu’s agents, whose name I’m blanking on) not only survives but ultimately becomes friends with d’Artagnan.
March 23, 2008 at 7:10 pm
I have finally finished ‘The Three Musketeers’, so I can answer my own question - Milady’s ‘brand’ was given to her by the executioner of Lille, after she tricked his brother, a priest, into betraying his religion and going on the lam with her. She of course eventually dumped the priest for Athos.
Milady’s history - she started life as a nun, ran off with a priest, was branded by his brother to seal her fate as she had been the cause of the priest’s downfall, snared a rich nobleman, was hanged but not killed when her past caught up with her, bigamously married an English nobleman - is fantastic and amoral, but basically, she is a passionate and ambitious woman who betrays men to advance up the social scale and uses her head instead of giving her heart. This is what struck me most about Dumas’ ‘villainess’ - she is not ‘evil’, but manipulative and grasping. Certainly not a woman to be trusted, as Constance discovers, but entirely human.
Constance, in fact, is more of a ‘device’, or a caricature, than Milady - for all that she starts off as a married woman having an affair with her husband’s lodger, she is quickly painted as a living saint, a pure, naive innocent with the mentality of a schoolgirl. I rather enjoyed the irony of Milady back in a convent, masquerading as a persecuted victim of the cardinal, her partner-in-crime
I agree that Marguerite is not an anti-heroine; indeed, she has moments in ‘Elusive’ and ‘Triumph’ where she resembles D’Artagnan’s vaulted Constance, trusting instinctively against her better judgement. Would she have been any different, if she and Percy had never reconciled? Milady isn’t ’scarred’ by Athos’s violent rejection, because I doubt she ever had genuine feelings for him, but it certainly turns her against ‘love’ ever after. Marguerite claims in TSP that Percy is the first man she ever fell in love with - what would she have done if her marriage had failed?
March 23, 2008 at 7:32 pm
Fascinating insights, Sarah! I’m running out the door and will reply more at length tonight, but I will say Milady has learned to live my her wits in a world that is often stacked against her. And that male characters who do the same on the whole tend, imo, to meet happier fates.
March 23, 2008 at 9:02 pm
‘Sexism’ in historical fiction has never really been a problem with me before, because the word didn’t exist in the seventeenth/eighteenth/nineteenth centuries and shouldn’t be written around in stories set in those times. BUT - the double standard in ‘Musketeers’ is almost a separate character in itself! Athos let everyone believe he was dead and hid his identity, and yet Milady’s ‘bigamy’ with Lord de Winter is made much of when it comes to her punishment. Milady lied to Athos, he took it upon himself to meet out the justice of the church and have her hanged, yet she should beg his forgiveness? (In the book, d’Artagnan almost buckles and pleads for her release, but Athos warns him not to interfere.) D’Artagnan himself sleeps with Milady whilst supposedly in love with the married Constance, and yet Milady is guilty of adding him to her list of victims? (At least he realises that his trick to get her into bed - pretending to be de Wardes, her lover - was rather low.) I was just spitting feathers by the end of it, and I didn’t like either d’Artagnan or Athos, the strongest of the male characters (I think I’d plump for the very pretty Porthos!)
Oh, and Milady’s male counterpart is Rochefort, the ‘man from Meung’.
March 23, 2008 at 9:26 pm
Lol, I had a crush on Athos and didn’t mind that he tried to kill the manipulative little bitch. And since my brother is married to one of her ilk (and there being a child, he can’t simply get a divorce without losing the kid as well) I still think Athos did the right thing. That sort of woman is no fun in real life.
But of course, as fictional character, Mylady de Winter is a lot more interesting than Constance. Her type is fun to write as well; I have a few Myladies in various degrees of evilness in my books.
It’s an interesting observation about compassion making a villainess redemptable. Because I did that by instinct to distinguish the truly evil Kazimira in “Kings and Rebels” who wrecks havoc all over the place from the manipulative and ambitious Islena in “The Charioteer” who in end the falls in love with the man she married to gain power.
And even the good girls are not perfect. Julia commits adultery, arranged marriage or not.
But overall, I prefer to write male characters. In all shades of grey.
March 24, 2008 at 3:34 am
Sarah, one of the things I loved about Marguerite when I was first saw the Howard/Oberon movie (my first introduction to TSP) was that she had a lot of the fun trappings of an anti-heroine. She got to wear glamorous clothes (yes, I keep coming back to the clothes–I love fashion :-)), she got to flirt with men, she was whispered about, she had a past of sorts. And yet she still got her happy ending and didn’t turn out to be evil. I actually think it’s rather radical that a character like Marguerite could turn out to be a “good” person underneath the glamour and mystery and gossip. In some versions of the story, she might have proved to be a villainess who died, having soured Percy on any belief in love, only to have him redeemed by the love of a pure young girl like Suzanne de Tournay.
As to what would have happened to Marguerite if her marriage to Percy had ended badly– I’m not sure. She’s never shown as having been as manipulative as Milady. She had ideals, loyalty to France, to the Revolution in the beginning, to her brother. So I have a hard time seeing her turning in to a woman like Milady. But I do think she’s have been scarred emotionally and have become much more cynical if she and Percy hadn’t reconciled.
March 24, 2008 at 3:57 am
I think it’s fascinating that sweet, pure Constance is in fact involved in an adulterous relationship. She’s betraying her husband, even as Milady betrayed Athos. For that matter, the musketeers spend a large part of the book preventing Queen Anne’s adultery from being revealed to her husband. I have no problem with this in context or with Constance’s relationship with d’Artagnan, but it makes Athos treatment of Milady even more infuriating. Fascinating irony, but from what I can tell from reading the novel, the irony was lost on Dumas.
Sexism may not have existed as a concept (though Mary Wollestronecraft and John Stuart Mill certainly made the right of women a topic), but the double standard existed and I think is fair game for historical novelists. In fact a lot of contemporary fiction (”Les Liaisons Dangereuses,” Jane Austen) deals with it in various forms. The sexual double standard is a large part of the theme of “Beneath a Silent Moon” (inspire, to a large extent, by “Les Liasisons Dangereuses” and Jane Austen).
Gabriele, I liked Athos and Milady (despite the fact that I hated Athos’s treatment of Milady) and wanted them to ride off in the sunset together. Which goes to show that I am probably delusional and also a hopeless romantic :-).
Your characters sound fabulous! I like to write both female and male characters, but I definitely prefer to paint them in shades of gray. In fact, the world being more gray than black and white is the theme of “Rightfully His.”
March 24, 2008 at 4:51 am
And how about another de Winter, Rebecca? I think the story of Rebecca and her husband somewhat mirrors that of Milady and Athos, although I can never be sure what really happened since there are only his words against her (not even hers). To me Rebecca is an anti-heroine literally because she is every bit the opposite of the nameless second Mrs. de Winter, yet not a villainess because her actions are mystery, let alone her motives.
March 24, 2008 at 5:04 am
Excellent example, Sharon! I hadn’t thought of it in those terms, but Rebecca is indeed literally the antithesis of the nameless heroine. I quite liked Sally Beauman’s “Rebecca’s Tale,” part sequel, part re-telling of the story from Rebecca’s pov. Not precisely my vision of the back story or the future of the characters but fascinating, compelling reading.
“Rebecca” was an influence a conscious influence on “Beneath a Silent Moon” with it’s mysterious house and new bride adjusting to her husband’s life and the secrets it contains. I reread the book, read “Rebecca’s Tale,” and watched the movie several times. Now that I think of it, Honoria Talbot in “Beneath a Silent Moon” is in many ways the antithesis of Mélanie, despite or because of the fact that Honoria, like Mélanie, is not what she seems on the surface.
March 24, 2008 at 11:30 am
Of course, Rebecca, yes! She is (was) manipulative - even to the point of goading her husband to kill her - glamorous, active; a perfect example. I have the Beauman revision, but I’ve never read it - perhaps I should!
I can never stomach ‘pure’ heroines, such as Constance (in the latter part of the book, anyway - you’re right, Dumas does seem to have missed the irony), or Suzanne de Tournay; they lack the surprise element of the anti-heroine, or even that of the beauty with the slightly murky past, a la Marguerite.
Sir Andrew and Suzanne in Orczy’s sequels are mere props for the main characters - Percy may cause Marguerite unnecessary grief and abandon her for months at a time, and Marguerite repeatedly gets herself into trouble, but at least their marriage has some life to it. I absolutely hated the line in ‘Elusive’ where Marguerite reflects on how Andrew would rather stay at home with his wife than join Percy and the League - I think ‘apron strings’ were mentioned! - because a safe, reliable hero is almost as tedious as a ‘pure’ heroine.
March 24, 2008 at 2:30 pm
Historically, women have always had the odds stacked against them. It’s not even been a century since women have had the right to VOTE in the good old USA.
That’s why I enjoy seeing heroines who “play the game” in historical romances/mysteries. Honestly, I think these women are often punished merely for *surviving* in a world which gave them little choice.
March 24, 2008 at 2:52 pm
What would be the identifying traits of an anti-heroine? I think the most important literary mark must be that she - like femme fatales in the film noir genre - must not be allowed a ‘happy ending’ by the author; an anti-heroine is traditionally beyond redemption. She has traits that appeal to the reader, obviously, but to satisfy their sense of justice, she cannot escape punishment or triumph over the romantic heroine/win the love of the hero. Dumas rams this one home, I think!
Second, she should be beautiful and alluring. Her death/punishment is like the destruction of a work of art, and the hero is entitled to a last struggle with his conscience over her fate - he doesn’t really love her, but she’s so very attractive! Can anybody who looks like her be held responsible for their actions?
Any suggestions?
March 24, 2008 at 3:52 pm
Gabriele, I liked Athos and Milady (despite the fact that I hated Athos’s treatment of Milady) and wanted them to ride off in the sunset together. Which goes to show that I am probably delusional and also a hopeless romantic :-).
Lol, and I could never imagine a happy end for them. Just well I don’t write romances.
What little I have doesn’t end happily most of the time, either. Not Ciaran and Julia (”The Charioteer”
for sure. I think that’s the difference between romance - or even mystery with a strong romance subplot - and the sort of books I write. Ciaran is a pagan warlord who fought hard to regain the rule of his people and Julia is a Christian Roman. Not only would she be very unhappy among Ciaran’s people, no matter how much she loves him, she also would not be accepted and Ciaran would run into a lot of trouble and risk losing the hard won position. So they decide a HEA is not for them. But I think you would manage to make it work, somehow.
I’m not sure about Alamir and Vinicia, I have too little grasp on her so far; and the “Empire at War” trilogy has no romantic pairing for the MCs at all, though there is a woman who’ll cause an family feud that will last several generations, and she’s not even a Lady de Winter.
Kjartan and Estrild (”Kings and Rebels”
is the only of my pairings I can really see end up happily.
March 24, 2008 at 4:10 pm
Not to mention that in the sequel of “The Three Musketeers”, Athos has a son with the Duchesse de Chèvreuse.
I don’t think it was the adulterous aspect of Mylady’s behaviour so much as the fact that she, as nun, stole church goods, and that is why she was marked, though without a proper trial, but the latter is something Athos can’t know. Theft was considered a very base crime and punished a lot harder than today. It must have felt like a severe blemish on Athos’ honour to be married to a thief.
March 24, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Sarah, do try Beauman’s “Rebecca’s Tale”–it’s a fascinating book, particularly in light of our current discussion. I too in general find “safe, reliable” heroes as dull as “pure, sweet” heroines. Like Gabriele, I prefer characters painted in shades of gray. Though, I do think, like Andrew and Suzanne, they can be interesting as foils for the main characters. And it’s an interesting choice for Orczy to have made, because there are plenty of books with Andrews and Suzannes as the main characters.
March 24, 2008 at 5:03 pm
JMM, I think that’s why anti-heroines are so interesting in historically set fiction–because they’re finding a way to survive and play the game in a world that’s stacked against them. For that matter, I think a number of anti-heroes come from backgrounds where they’ve had the odds stacked against them as well.
March 24, 2008 at 5:38 pm
Sarah, I think that’s a great description of one type of anti-heroine (Rebecca, Milady), but I’m not sure anti-heroines have to meet a tragic ending. Anti-heroes don’t. I looked up anti-hero in the Oxford Dictionary and it’s defined as “Hero of unconventional type in novel, etc…” I’ve heard the term used to encompass a wide variety of characters, but out and out “villains” to heroes who don’t play by the rules. Dorothy Dunnett’s Francis Crawford of Lymond is sometimes called an “anti-hero,” which always surprises me, because underneath he is quite noble in the traditional, heroic sense. But he definitely pushes the boundaries of convention. Nicholas, in Dunnett’s “House of Niccolò” to me comes closer to being an anti-hero because his motives are more gray. Both he and Lymond have happy endings.
If an anti-heroine is a “heroine of unconventional type” then Emma, Barbara, and Mélanie would all qualify and all have happy endings. Interestingly, both Emma and Barbara have foils of the more traditional heroine type (Jane Fairfax and Lucy Devenish) and both worry about losing the hero to these rivals. Mélanie to a degree has that with Honoria in “Beneath a Silent Moon,” though the secrets on both sides make the situation more ambiguous.
It occurs to me that Mary Crawford in “Mansfield Park” is another good example of an anti-heroine. Glamorous, worldly, clever, manipulative. Unlike Emma, she loses the hero to sweet, patient Fanny Price. I always thought Mary much more interesting than Fanny, as I mentioned in the quote at the beginning of the post. Not that I minded when Fanny ended up with Edmund, because I thought Edmund was rather dull himself :-).
March 24, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Gabriele, if I tried to write a happy ending for Milady and Athos, they’d both have to be very different people. But it’s still fun to imagine. It goes to my “What if…?” post a few weeks ago. Sometimes taking a scenario from a novel and imagining how it might have played out differently with different characters can spark a whole novel of it’s own.
I think you’re right about the importance of Milday’s having been a thief. But chiefly, I think, it’s the personal blot on Athos’s honor, that *his* wife deceived him. And from what I remember, he never paused to ask “why?”
As to happy endings, I was thinking about this just yesterday and realized that one of the things I like about writing historical fiction, is that even though I tend to plot in terms of happy endings, they aren’t guaranteed outside the romance genre. For one thing, as part of an ongoing series, Charles and Mélanie and the other couples don’t precisely have an “ending.” They may work a problem out, but their relationship continues on the page, with more issues and complications to explore, just as there are in real life relationships :-).
March 24, 2008 at 6:35 pm
Yeah, Charles and Mélanie are married and that makes for a different sort or romance.
But “The Charioteer” is about Ciaran who becomes a hostage to the Romans, then is illegally enslaved, makes a career as charioteer in Rome and eventually returns home to wrestle the rule of his people from the ursurper who snatched it while Ciaran was away. Right then the Roman army leaves Britain, the Picts use the chance to invade, the Saxons get called in to deal with them, and Ciaran ends up right in the middle of the mess, plus there are still some Romans who want to recapture then ‘escaped slave’. So his romance with Julia is only a subplot, and the end, instead of them being happy after Ciaran reclaimed his position, there will be a rational decision that it Just Won’t Work, and Julia will rise Ciaran’s son as Roman because he thinks he owes her that much at least, and he can sire another heir with a tribal woman.
Ouch, you know, that looks like there could be a sequel. Nooo, I have enough plots for the next ten years already.
Not to mention “The Charioteer” is far from being finished because I have some problems with the pesky details of plot and motivation, and prefer to work on the “Empire at War” trilogy and the Fantasy story right now.
March 24, 2008 at 6:37 pm
Oh yes, Edmund and Fanny were dull, the Crawfords were a lot more fun. It’s the one Austen story that doesn’t really work for me.
March 24, 2008 at 6:51 pm
Ciaran and Julia’s story sounds fascinating (and as though it definitely calls for a sequel about their son:-). I hadn’t really considered this before, but if Charles and Mélanie had met during the war, *knowing* they were on opposite sides, their relationship would have been pretty much impossible. Neither one of them would have turned their back on their other loyalites, so they’d have had to go their separate ways. Interesting thought to consider.
I like some of the secondary characters in “Mansfield Park,” but it’s my least favorite Austen.
March 24, 2008 at 7:04 pm
Sarah’s comment reminds me of what I recently heard on NPR of Catwoman, who has all those traits. (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=88203149)
There’s another trait that I think many anti-heroines share: they are ahead of their times. In another time and place, they would be perfectly admirable women. For me there are differences between an anti-heroine and a villainess. The “crimes” of an anti-heroine are against societal stricture, not humanity. She has a conscience and would suffer from remorse if she committed a crime against humanity. In this regard, I think Milady starts out as an anti-heroine and ends up a villainess.
By the way, I think what is pure-and-sweet depends on one’s definition. I saw the movie although I never read “The Age of Innocence”. At the end, I think the countess purer and sweeter than the Winona Ryder character. Now who are the heroine, the anti-heroine, and the villainess?
March 24, 2008 at 7:25 pm
Sharon, I heard the “Catwoman” segment on NPR and thought it was brilliant! It made me think about Mélanie :-). You’re right, so apt to this discussion. I love your definition of the difference between an anti-heroine and a villainess. I agree, I think Milady crosses over a line when she kills Constance (though I still wish she got away in the end :-). I definitely agree that anti-heroines are often ahead of their times–that’s what I was getting at when I talked about part of the appeal of anti-heroines being that they break rules and defy conventions. I think they may also ahead of the times in that they are ahead of the conventional expectations of a heroine at the time the story was written.
“The Age of Innocence” is a fascinating example in this context. I’ve seen the movie (several times) and read the book (the characters are very similar in the book and the movie). Ellen, the countess (the Michelle Pfeiffer), start off with a lot of the trappings of the anti-heroine–sophisticated, glamorous, a bit jaded, mysterious, possessed of a past. Whereas May (the Winona Ryder character) is innocent and pure and starry-eyed and very much a conventional heroine. Yet in the end, it is May who manipulates the situation (I think Winona Ryder is brilliant in those scenes) and Ellen who makes a choice based on what she thinks is right. I don’t think the story has a villainess, but I think I’d call Ellen the heroine and May the anti-heroine.
March 24, 2008 at 7:45 pm
Yes, an anti-hero(ine) must keep some human traits, or we’ll end up with an Evil Overlord. But those traits must still outweigh the negative ones, or there must be glimpses that redemption will be possible - after all, even Hitler loved Eva Braun.
And sometimes it’s minor traits that can make for a very unlikeable character: narrow-mindedness, bigotry, petty jealousy, avarice … I should stop using my own characters as example, but they’re on mind mind a lot
Cornelius Lentulus from the EaW series is a perfect Roman: correct, dutiful, obedient, willing to work for the state, to risk his life as officer, but he’s an asshole nevertheless, while the MC is not such a perfect Roman because he is ‘too’ tolerant towards non-Romans, who at some point wonders if war is really the only way to deal with the tribes, who has a friend on the ‘wrong side’.
I think someone can be a paragon of his/her society, and still become a villain, or at least a very unsympathic character (some of Austen’s surely fit that category, fe. some members of the Ferrars family in SaS, or Mr. Collins).
March 24, 2008 at 8:50 pm
I think I was using ‘anti-heroine’ as a synonym for ‘villainess’ - in that she is the antithesis of a conventional heroine - but I agree with Sharon’s point that anti-heroines are seen as criminals in the eyes of society. This is what started me off on Milady - basically, she is ‘guilty’ of overstepping the boundaries of femininity (and yet she also uses the same ambition to get what she wants). She is forced into a corner by the end of the book, her desperation culminating in Constance’s death, but to begin with, she was merely a woman with power.
As for anti-heroes, I’m not sure the two categories can be compared, as flawed heroes aren’t ‘destroyed’ by the author as often, and obligatorily, as their female counterparts. Returning to Chauvelin, he actually flourished in Orczy’s stories, becoming just as interesting and vivid as Sir Percy, and yet he started as a pantomime villain, rubbing his hands together in glee. Mam’zelle Guillotine, a minor ‘anti-heroine’ from one of the sequels, was left to wander off into the forest, bereft of her willpower and cunning after two run-ins with the Pimpernel.
March 24, 2008 at 9:07 pm
Excellent examples, Gabriele–I think Austen is full of characters who are “paragons of their society” and yet not sympathetic in the least. Austen does a wonderful job of humanizing the acerbic Mr. Palmer in “Sense and Sensibility.” I’m trying to think if there are any characters in Austen who transgress the social order and yet are sympathetic. Elizabeth breaks rules in small ways, such as walking to Netherfield. Lydia and Wickham, who seriously defy convention, are every bit as unsympathetic as Mr. Collins and the Ferrars. I tend to find Mary Crawford sympathetic, but I’m not sure Austen intends me to. Perhaps I need to reread “Mansfield Park”…
March 24, 2008 at 9:14 pm
Sarah, I think the contrast between the fates of anti-heroines and anti-heroes has a lot to do with the fact that society tended to be harder on women who transgressed its rules than on men who did so. Perhaps in general authors tend to be harder on female characters who break social conventions than on male characters who do so. One of the interesting things about the piece Sharon mentioned on Catwoman is that Catwoman doesn’t suffer a sad fate (of course she’s on ongoing character so she can’t, but even in the fairly recent Batman film, she wasn’t precisely defeated).
The contrast between the fates of Chauvelin and Mam’zelle Guillotine reminds me of the contrast I mentioned earlier between the fates of Milady and of Rochefort (thanks for supplying his name!).
March 24, 2008 at 11:28 pm
I was looking at a summary of The Three Musketeers! Boy! Talk about your double standards! d’Artagnan sleeps with Milady because his *pride* was hurt? While he’s supposedly in love with Constance? (Who is married to someone else while d’Artagnan is sleeping with her.)
Grrrr…
As for Chauvelin and Mam’zelle; you’ll notice the Baroness was very careful to keep blood off Percy’s hands. He might lose control and choke Chauvelin, but only when Chauvelin makes the mistake of threatening Marguerite.
I partially agree that some anti-heroines are “ahead of their time” BUT I have noticed that there are *still* certain boundaries that conventional writers seem to follow:
Good Women are Warm and Maternal and good housekeepers.
Bad Women don’t like children and let other people clean their houses.
(Don’t laugh; I’ve read romances where the heroine was scorned by the hero because the hero thought she had a maid. Indignant, she informs him that SHE cleans her apartment herself.)
March 24, 2008 at 11:42 pm
And that’s so wrong. I would have someone clean my house if I had the money, and I’m not overly fond of children, but I don’t think I’m a bad woman because I never wanted kids and hate ironing.
March 24, 2008 at 11:43 pm
Yes, “The Three Musketeers” is sadly rife with double standards, JMM. I’m not sure about the later books in the series, which I haven’t read (I’ve seen various film adaptations, but I think a lot of details were changed).
Interesting point about the boundaries you see conventional writers use with female characters. Do you think anti-heroines tend to not like children and be bad housekeepers? Or that the more sympathetic and redeemable ones are warm and maternal and good housekeepers as opposed to the irredeemable ones? Most of the characters we’ve been talking about have other people clean their houses, because they’re in a era and social class where that’s the norm. Becky Sharp is distinctly not maternal. Barbara Childe enjoys the hero’s nephew, which is one of her positive moments and perhaps goes to your point. Mélanie’s good with children, though I think Charles is much tidier than she is.
Interestingly, one of the things I learned form the NPR Catwoman segment Sharon mentioned, is that in the current comic strip Catwoman has a daughter.
March 24, 2008 at 11:49 pm
I meant female characters in general.
Anti-heroines do tend to break some rules; they enjoy money and fashion and servants.
Yes, most historical heroines don’t have to worry about cleaning house. In fact, rich men litter the ground in historicals - a heroine can’t walk 5 feet without tripping over a duke!
But even today, a contemporary heroine has to have a certain attitude. I’ve read books where the hero judges the heroine (who he’s never met or met once) as a “bitch” because she is said to be uncomfortable around kids. Of course, it turns out the heroine has a Secret Heartache - she’s sterile, or lost a child, so seeing children hurts her.
Anyway.
March 25, 2008 at 12:07 am
Gabriele, I’m very fond of kids, but totally with you on ironing :-).
I see what you mean, JMM. Being good with children, a good housekeeper, etc… are often used as a sort of shorthand. Harriet Vane actually makes a point of not being maternal. Then, after she marries Peter, she decides she wants kids with him. Which I found quite believable in context, but doesn’t break the pattern (though Peter does marry her thinking she doesn’t want children, so at least being warm and maternal isn’t why he falls in love with her). In my mom’s and my second book, “The Courting of Philippa,” the heroine is choosing between three different men. The different reactions of the three guys to kids are part of what goes into her thinking about what they’d be like as husbands.
March 25, 2008 at 2:25 am
Three Musketeers is one of my all-time favorites, though I admit to being a Dumas fan generally, and Le Comte de Monte Cristo tops the Dumas list for me.
I don’t think Milady is an anti-heroine - I think she’s one of our great villainesses. She never does anything for any reason other than for her own advancement or protection. She destroys people at the drop of a hat, with not a murmur from her conscience. I find her use of a mixture of religion and sex to seduce her way out of imprisonment to be as chilling as the ease with which she eliminates Constance.
Nor do I think there’s all that large a double standard. Sexual infidelity isn’t a moral problem for Dumas — it’s a matter of passion and politics. His moral themes are much more concerned with loyalty and honor and sacrifice, even as his central “heroic” characters each have such remarkable foibles.
No one has a problem with Constance’s sexual activities any more than with the men’s — she and they are driven by desire or shared interests. Milady is condemned because of how she uses her sexuality — literally as a femme fatale. It’s only d’Artangan who almost plays the same game with her.
I note you often say how much you love Lymond. I’ve always thought Dunnett must have had Milady and Constance in the back of her mind when she created Margaret Douglas, Countess of Lennox and Christian Stewart. Margaret may not be quite in Milady’s class as a villainess — though over the course of six novels she comes close. But Christian outclasses Constance on all particulars, including the tragic manner of her death.
March 25, 2008 at 2:55 am
Thanks so much for your thoughtful remarks, CJM! Your point that Dumas is more concerned with honor and loyalty and sacrifice is a good one. I think I still see a bit more a double standard than you do (though I confess I know the book less well than your==Sarah, if you’re reading this, do chime in, as you just finished the book and have fresher take). Milady may be condemned for using her sexuality as a weapon, but she does so, I think, because it is one of the few weapons available to her. And I can’t help but suspect that part of the reason the heroes condemn Milady’s infidelity but not Constance’s is that Milady betrayed one of them, while Constance is betraying her husband *with* one of them. Milady certainly acts in her own self=interest throughout but Dumas is such a skilled writer than I can understand the forces that made her that way. I think I’m inclined to agree with Sharon that she’s an anti-heroine who becomes a villainess.
As to Margaret Lennox–I actually almost mentioned her in the original post. There is indeed a strong parallel between Milady and Margaret and between Constance and Christian. Though I think Milady is a much more nuanced character than Margaret in the books, while I agree the Christian is much more interesting than Constance.
March 25, 2008 at 9:57 am
I agree with you, Tracy - the double standard in Musketeers is that the men can do as they like, and make adultery about love, whereas Milady employing the same tricks for her own benefit makes her amoral at best, or an ‘evil’ villainess. My take on her as an ‘anti-heroine’ is that she is also sympathetic to the reader, who can understand her motivations and methods whilst being horrified at the extent to which she uses others to survive.
I was very impressed with the chapters where she slowly manipulates the young and seemingly incorruptible guard to escape her brother-in-law’s prison; it takes her days to chip away at his conscience after learning of his religious devotion, and given the opportunity, she doesn’t turn the knife on him, recognising that she, as a woman, could never break free alone, but winds the poor man into such a frenzy of chivalry and desire that he does everything for her, including killing Buckingham.
Milady doesn’t respect religion, easily masquerading as a Puritan and a Catholic, and doesn’t trust men. It’s easy to understand both; if Milady was a character in modern fiction, she would have a ‘Secret Heartache’, as JMM calls it!
March 25, 2008 at 3:32 pm
“The different reactions of the three guys to kids are part of what goes into her thinking about what they’d be like as husbands.”
I have a sibling with Down Syndrome. I admit, I tend to judge people on how they treat him.
And I admit, if one partner wants to have children and the other doesn’t; that’s a dealbreaker. (One can’t compromise and have 1/2 a child, after all!)
But I don’t think Peter would ever marry with the idea of breeding. He seemed to have mixed feelings about the estate and the title. In one breath, he said St. George could sell it out with his blessing, in the next, he asked Harriet if she would go with him to see it at least once, admitting his attachment.
Yikes! This is very OT.
No, Harriet doesn’t strike me as being one of those heroines who would consider her life incomplete without children. Although she would like to have them with the right man, if they come along.
March 25, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Sarah, I agree that part of why Milady is an anti-heroine is that she tends to be sympathetic to the reader (at least to a number of readers). In this, I think, she’s different from Margaret Lennox in the Lymond Chronicles who CJM mentioned. At least I know I never found myself sympathetic to Margaret or looking at the story from her perspective. I think it’s largely because Margaret plays a smaller role in the books (she only appears in a handful of scenes though she’s talked about) and we never really get her point of view on the situation. I wonder if part of the difference between antiheroes/heroines and villains/villainesses is that we tend to look at villains/villainesses from the outside whereas with anti-heroes/heroines we look at situtions from their perspective even when they do horrible things.
March 25, 2008 at 4:51 pm
JMM, I can well imagine judging people on how they treat your brother. I hope most people treat him well!
Yes, children are definitely a deal breaker (I’ve seen several friends come up against this) and not anything anyone should compromise on either way. I’m very of children myself, so I tend to write children in a lot of my books (as blogged about recently) so that a lot of my characters are parents or acting in place of parents. But I can definitely enjoy reading about characters who don’t particularly want children.
OT threads can be very fun. Yes, Peter seems to have mixed feelings about having children and continuing the family line. He confesses in “Busman’s Honeymoon” that he left his property entailed and would like children. But this is only after Harriet has surprised him by saying she wants them herself. Peter marries her thinking she doesn’t want kids–he loves Harriet the person, not the potential mother, and loves her enough that being with her is more important than having children.
March 25, 2008 at 6:54 pm
I don’t think it’s so much about double sexual morals in Dumas’ books. If you look at the continuation, there’s this backstory scene Athos narrates where he traveled cross country and spent a night in the house of a village priest who himself had to leave and see a dying man. The same night, a woman disguised as man also seeks shelter in the house, thinking Athos to be the priest, and seduces him. Nine months later, she leaves the baby at the priest’s; Athos learns about her identity - she is the Duchesse de Chèvreuse - claims the boy and raises him. In his later encounters with the duchesse, he never thinks any lesser of her for that night. And in the third book, when Raoul’s (Athos’s son) fiancée Louise de la Vallière gets involved with the king, Athos is more angry at the king than at Louise because it’s only an affair for Louis XIV while Raoul really loved the girl, and Louis should not have hurt a man devoted to the royal family that way. And we’re back to the honour aspect.
I think it’s because Mylady uses her sexuality as agent of Richilieu and thus against the musketeers that make her actions look bad. Of course, then another layer is added when it turns out she’s a thief and Athos’ wife.
March 25, 2008 at 7:22 pm
Good points, Gabriele. I still do see a double standard, though, in condemning a woman who uses her sexuality *against* them (especially since sexuality was one of the most effective weapons a woman had at her disposal at the time) while looking far more favorably on the women who indulge *with* them. Though Athos looking more favorably on Louise (who betrays his son) than on the king does balance the equation a bit.
March 26, 2008 at 3:44 am
I guess one of my questions for you Tracy is, if Milady isn’t a villainess, then who is, other than a cardboard character? Though Milady is fully wrought, and delightfully so, she’s an antagonist, not a protagonist.
I also expect an anti-hero/ine to have some sort of internal conflict even if full of flaws and without an heroic purpose. Milady has no internal conflict at all. She’s a baddie from the git-go. Athos is devastated not because she committed a crime but because she had misled him into believing in happiness and he had invested his soul in a love that was false — it’s her manufacture of a false persona and love, not simply that she hid her past, that’s the true betrayal. In death and then when he sees her again, she’s the ultimate temptress — he’s torn apart because he remains so attracted to her (in memory and then in the flesh) even though he knows how black her soul is. In England, her seduction of a man who is genuinely fighting a spiritual fight — he’s not a hypocrite who deserves to be brought down — with a mix of religion and sex is pure evil. It is d’Artangnan’s special sort of innocence that provides him a modicum of protection from her, though he is certainly susceptible to her sexual wiles. As Athos sees it, she doesn’t just have to die for her crimes — she has to die in order to save others like Athos from destruction.
I’ve never had an ounce of sympathy for Milady even though I love her dearly as a character. Is she exploited by others as she herself exploits — sometimes yes, though with her eyes open, and none of what she gets isn’t deserved. The fact that she uses and is used doesn’t make her distinctive in Dumas’ universe. His characters are always busy using each other, often quite cheerfully, for money, sex and power.
But then I don’t find most of Dumas’ characters in Three Musketeers all that sympathetic, though they’re delightfully charming and funny. They’re too self-absorbed and unaware of their own foibles — until they are forced to confront their great crises. It’s one of the reasons why I prefer Le Conte de Monte Cristo — everybody’s shades of grey including Edmond Dantes (except Haydee and a couple of the villains) — but many of Dantes’ opponents and victims have a sympathetic dimension because they’ve been caught up by forces beyond their control, or are facing competing loyalties, and they’re terribly conflicted. The four musketeers show these sorts of character traits in subsequent novels, which aren’t as vivid or funny but are more moving.
I agree with Gabriele’s points. Dumas doesn’t have double standards for women. He’s equal opportunity for both sexes. And if it’s sex between two powerful people using and manipulating each other, more the better. It’s when sex is used in abusive asymmetrical and destructive power games that a character is condemned, whether the character is male or female.
As for Margaret Douglas — in power and villain terms, she’s actually a Richelieu, not a Milady. So we don’t get a close look at the details of how she implements her schemes. We miss out on what we have so much fun watching in Three Musketeers — Milady in action. With Margaret Douglas, that sort of action is mostly left to the minions off-stage, or to Leonard Bailey and John Elder. Margaret only dirties her own hands with Christian’s betrayal and death, though that doesn’t seem to distress her. She just doesn’t like Gideon’s accusatory look.
We don’t get Margaret’s direct POV, but then we rarely get Lymond’s either. But we get quite a flavor of her character from her actions and from others’ perspectives. The opposing tension between her and Lymond — both madly scheming and trying to manipulate and defeat each other — is marvelous in Game of Kings and Queens’ Play. Their first meeting in the tower is electric. And the death of the monkey, frex, is a riveting bit of business between them. Altogether, we have a pretty good picture of a monster like her uncle Henry VIII — large of appetite, clever, cruel, conscienceless, with a belief in her own entitlement and driven by a desire for power.
However, Lymond always eschews revenge and successfully puts her out of his life. And as he matures and succeeds in the world, he moves into another class altogether, quite beyond her scope, except as he gets caught by accident. Which is why she remains so obsessed with bringing him down. He only bothers to pay attention to her when she forces him to have to thwart her. And she can’t stand being ignored or treated as a minor irritant.
March 26, 2008 at 8:39 am
Thanks for your thoughtful and fascinating comments, CJM! As I said in my post, it all has to do with how one defines terms. Milady is definitely an antagonist in the book, so if that’s the dividing line between villainess and anti-heroine, she’s certainly a villainess. Sarah, on the other hand, classified Chauvelin as an anti-hero in the email exchange that was the inspiration for this post. Chauvelin is definitely Percy Blakeney’s antagonist through out the series. But he is also a nuanced, complicated character for whom I at times feel sympathy. So I can imagine calling him an anti-hero. Based on that definition I’d also call Milady an anti-heroine (I do feel sympathy for her at times in the story, though I certainly wouldn’t say I approve of her actions).
I don’t think for me an anti-hero or anti-heroine has to have an internal conflict necessarily. By that definition, Becky Sharp wouldn’t be an anti-heroine.
I love the tower scene between Lymond and Margaret Lennox, but after that I confess I find Margaret not quite as interesting.
March 26, 2008 at 12:16 pm
That’s exactly my perspective, Tracy - it is not the anti-hero/heroine’s ‘inner conflict’ that sets them apart from a villain, but the reader’s conflict between sympathy and judgement for the character. An anti-heroine isn’t, in my eyes, necessarily a good girl gone bad, or even a better person trapped by circumstances, but a character fighting against the hero, for whatever reason - opposing interests, whether personal or political - who inspires the reader to follow their story just as much as that of the protagonist.
As CJM said, however, there isn’t very much competition for the reader’s sympathy in Musketeers, as the four leading men are also quite base in their motives, and superficial in development. D’Artagnan and Athos, the two strongest characters, were, for me, respectively immature and sadistic (his violent reaction to wounded pride and personal betrayal is somehow worse than meeting out just punishment for the crime she was branded for), and I didn’t care for either. Milady, however, was attractive and lively, remaining in control until the very end, when Dumas had her gallery of rogues pass judgement on her crimes.
March 26, 2008 at 5:03 pm
That’s an excellent way of defining an anti-heroine, Sarah. It means the definition of whether a character is an anti-hero/heroine or villain/villainess will vary with the reader, as there’s wide variety in which characters engage our sympathies. That’s an idea that intrigues me, because I think every reader brings a lot to a book and every reader reads a given book slightly differently.
Like you and CJM, I don’t find the four leading men of “The Musketeers” particularly sympathetic. Charming and funny, as CJM says, and their intrigues and adventures are a lot of fun to follow. But I wasn’t particularly emotionally engaged with them, which I suspect made it easier to be caught up in Milady’s side of the story.
March 26, 2008 at 8:16 pm
You’re so right about the reader bringing his/her own to a book. I have a soft spot for mysterious, tortured heros, and for me, Athos is a perfect example of those. And since I had developed a crush on him before I learned about his past with Mylady, I was on his side.
March 26, 2008 at 8:29 pm
I think it’s fascinating how readers bring different perspectives to books, Gabriele. As I mentioned in previous discussions, readers often have diametrically opposed views of Charles and Mélaie in my books, sometimes seeing the situation from his perspective and finding her difficult to forgive, sometimes wondering why it takes him so long to forgive her. I have a soft spot for mysterious, tortured heroes too, so in some ways Athos is my favorite musketeer. But I have a hard time with vengeance in general and to me his killing her out of wounded pride, as Sarah says, was particularly unsympathetic. I still find myself liking him in parts of the book though!
March 26, 2008 at 8:34 pm
And I have no problems with vengeance. Heck, some of my ‘heroes’ go pretty far until they realise it doesn’t solve everything. In a way, Talorcan is my 2nd century AD version of Athos.
The whole excange reminds me a bit of the discussions with my later mother. Her favourite in “War and Peace” was Pierre, while I prefered Andrej. To mention just one book we talked about.
March 26, 2008 at 8:40 pm
Andrei versus Pierre could make for fascinating discussions (I agree with your mother in preferring Pierre). This whole topic of how readers read books differently might make for a very blog topic…
March 26, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Lol, one of the arguments my mother had was that I’d be able to better appreciate Pierre when I grew older (I was about 12 when I read the book for the first time). I’m now 46 and still like Andrei better. Looks like I failed to grow up.
March 26, 2008 at 10:24 pm
Whereas I preferred Pierre even at twelve :-). Maybe we both just knew what we wanted in a guy at any early age!
March 26, 2008 at 10:29 pm
Yeah, and I’m still looking
March 26, 2008 at 10:38 pm
Me too :-).